Dialogue between worlds: the political and cultural participation of indigenous peoples

The topic was addressed in a workshop organized by the project “Democlites – Democracy, Climate, and Ecological and Social Transition,” a joint initiative of Université Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne and USP supported by FAPESP.

By José Tadeu Arantes  |  Agência FAPESP – What happens when Western hegemonic thinking – with its paradigms, vocabulary, and institutions – encounters the traditional knowledge of indigenous peoples? Can horizontal dialogue be engaged in to achieve results that benefit both sides? Or are reductionist framing and subjugation inevitable? These questions were explored at the workshop “Political Participation of Indigenous Peoples and Communities in the Amazon.”

The event, held on November 3 at the Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology of the University of São Paulo (MAE-USP), is part of the Brazilian stage of the project “Democlites – Democracy, Climate, and Ecological and Social Transition”. This is a joint initiative of Université Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne and USP, supported by FAPESP, the Institut Français, and the Consulate General of France in São Paulo as part of Saison Croisée France-Brésil.

According to speaker Alex Alexis, a doctoral student in comparative law at Université Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne and Université de Montréal, the common theme of the four conferences that made up the workshop was the “dialogue between worlds.” Alexis said, “I prefer to speak of ‘worlds’ rather than ‘worldviews’ because ‘worldview’ presupposes a single, external, and always the same world, of which there would be several views. And that, in the end, science would be the best spokesperson for this world, unmanufactured and almost eternal, which exists in and of itself. This notion has been widely questioned in debates on political ontology. That’s why I prefer ‘world,’ quite simply,” he said.

According to him, conflicts between different ontologies mainly arise when indigenous peoples participate in political and legal processes, prompting modern law to judge realities it does not recognize. In this regard, he cited two examples with diametrically opposed outcomes. In Canada, the Ktunaxa indigenous people of British Columbia went to court, even reaching the Supreme Court, to argue against licensing a ski resort that, in their words, would scare away the spirit of the grizzly bear. The judges denied the request on the grounds that the indigenous people were not claiming the right to believe in the spirit of the grizzly bear – a right recognized by the Canadian Constitution – but rather were requesting protection of the spirit itself, which did not fit within the terms of the law.

“In contrast, there’s a case in New Zealand. The government intended to include the commercialization of data relating to Maori communities in trade negotiations. The Maori opposed this and, before the Waitangi Tribunal, asserted that their data was not an economic resource to be included in intellectual property and trade networks, but was ‘taonga,’ that is, treasures that contain a vital principle and connect communities to the environment and to past, present, and future generations. The court accepted this ontology. It established that Maori data was ‘taonga’ and that the government shouldn’t negotiate its commercialization without the agreement of the indigenous communities,” Alexis reported.

At the conference, anthropologist Nastassja Martin, full professor of the junior professorship “Earth Habitability and Just Transitions” at the Université Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne, presented a similar reflection pointing to a cosmopolitical way of thinking capable of taking into account the plurality of worlds and the possibility of dialogue between them. Martin is famous for her book Croire aux fauves, in which she describes a disfiguring bear attack she suffered in Siberia. At the event, she reported on her recent participation in the ÁGUAMÃE meeting, which was organized by the Escolas Vivas initiative. This movement supports indigenous projects that strengthen and help transmit traditional knowledge. It brings together members of the Guarani, Maxakali, Huni Kuin, Baniwa, and Tukano-Dessano-Tuyuka peoples.

“The idea was for people from these collectives to come and share their ways of understanding water outside the framework that treats it only as an appropriable and materially exploitable ‘resource,’ but rather as an entity with which it’s possible to dialogue in many ways. Selvagem [a non-governmental organization that promotes the Escolas Vivas movement] rented a boat to sail Guanabara Bay, working on the Tupi-Guarani toponymy of the surrounding places. We all embarked – including people who’d never left their communities. There was a navigation-conversation among everyone, with invited geologists and hydrologists, but also with their own ways of accessing the water. Francisco, from the Baniwa collective, for example, updated the possibility of dialogue by playing the traditional flute, which is understood to be capable of producing effects on this entity,” said Martin.

The anthropologist said that she was the “white person” in the group and that they had asked her to write a text. “Not to provide them with a theoretical framework, but to show that there are people in Europe who think in ways that resonate with theirs. It was touching. People were moved because they saw the real possibility of dialogue.”

Martin contrasted this experience with what she had observed during her research in Chilean Patagonia: “All of the Patagonian ranches – which, let’s face it, were the very expression of colonialism, with fences everywhere, very few landowners, and thousands of sheep guarded by a few very poor gauchos – had their concessions renegotiated for energy projects. The plan is to replace the sheep with wind turbines – one turbine per hectare. It was a real gold rush to obtain the concessions, because whoever got there first paid less. Today, to give you an idea of the scale of the thing, landowners who can install these wind turbines receive about USD 30,000 per year per turbine installed. The plan is to cover the entire steppe with them. And that, they say, is green!”

“And that’s not all,” the anthropologist continued. “In the wake of this, mines are reopening in Chilean Patagonia. The usual people suffer from the contamination of the springs and rivers that should irrigate the land. All this in the name of the ‘energy transition.’ When we visit the villages impacted by the extraction of the minerals needed for these megaprojects, the situation is extremely problematic.”

She argues that the ongoing energy transition is a rehash of the same model that produced the climate and environmental crisis. Although energy sources change, the components of nature are still seen as resources to be appropriated and exploited for unlimited economic growth. From another ontological perspective, indigenous peoples offer a radical alternative.

“My work, which I intend to complete this year, is a political engagement alongside these people, together with them, to document energy transition projects rigorously and, at the same time, to reframe the ontological question in another way. Not to conceive the world as an inexhaustible stockpile, but as a place where interspecies relationships, between humans and non-humans, are possible and productive. To take this seriously as a response. I feel that, for indigenous peoples, there’s a real challenge in translating this ‘change of register’ to the West – the possibility of listening. Because it isn’t just a question of language. It’s a question of mental cartography,” she said.

Local uses of law

An important aspect of this broad topic was explored in depth by Vitor Ido, a professor of commercial law at the University of São Paulo Law School (FD-USP). In his lecture, he discussed the protection of indigenous peoples’ traditional knowledge based on the strategic uses of private law and intellectual property. With six years of experience negotiating in international processes, including with the Intergovernmental Committee of the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO), Ido stated, “There’s much more creativity and power in the local uses of law in the Amazon than in major international arenas.”

The USP professor began his speech by contextualizing the discussion within the framework of Franco-Brazilian dialogue. He mentioned prominent anthropologists such as Claude Lévi-Strauss, Pierre Clastres, Manuela Carneiro da Cunha, and Eduardo Viveiros de Castro. “There’s also Mauro Almeida, a professor at UNICAMP [State University of Campinas], who analyzed joint work between indigenous peoples and scientists and developed the notion of ‘pragmatic encounter’: pragmatism understood here as the possibility of working together, recognizing otherness, and cooperating, without requiring absolute consensus between scientific and traditional practices,” he said.

According to Ido, it is this idea of a “pragmatic encounter” that allows us to overcome the limiting dualism that views traditional knowledge as either a commodity or an environmental panacea. It also recognizes that participation in international forums, such as the Convention on Biological Diversity and the World Intellectual Property Organization, offers positive possibilities for indigenous presence and agency despite all its limitations. “The fact of ‘being there,’ of participating as an indigenous person, has been seen in some of the literature – for example, by Laura Graham – as a way of ‘performing indigeneity,’ creating new spaces for recognition and new ways of doing international law,” he reflected.

The researcher cited three cases of successful indigenous use of private law. The first case is that of the Baniwa women of the Upper Rio Negro. They registered Pimenta Jiquitaia Baniwa, a mixture of several species, as a trademark with the National Institute of Industrial Property (INPI). It is now sold in sophisticated restaurants and markets in Brazil. The second case is that of the Wayãpi people from the border of Amapá with French Guiana. They are recognized for their Kusiwa graphic art and body painting. The National Historical and Artistic Heritage Institute (IPHAN) recognized it as Intangible Cultural Heritage of Brazil. The United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) recognized it as World Heritage. The third case is the inclusion of indigenous communities as shareholders or strategic participants in companies in the United States.

Can the strategic use of private law enforce indigenous rights? According to Ido, there are three answers to this question. The first answer is that none of this works; it is merely greenwashing or political marketing. The second answer is that it is a pragmatic use of available tools that can yield tangible results. The third answer is that it can serve as a foundation for reimagining legal forms and categories, generating new concepts of environmental protection, human rights, and the Amazon. This approach recognizes that Amazonian peoples create the world they protect, blurring the distinction between nature and culture. Ido’s answer is the last one: “I believe we need to measure things differently: be pragmatic in quotation marks, go beyond dualisms, and recognize that there’s a reinvention of law underway, an experiment that starts with the peoples themselves.”

Indigenous cultural diplomacy

The idea of using and transforming available spaces permeated Carolina Amaral de Aguiar’s presentation at the conference. De Aguiar is a professor of history at the Institute of International Relations (IRI) at USP and spoke about indigenous cultural diplomacy, including the internationalization of artists and filmmakers, in another workshop in the Democlites cycle. The workshop focused on “Inclusion and equity in globalization.”

Her presentation examined the rapid popularization and internationalization of indigenous Brazilian artists and filmmakers over the past five years, ranging from individual or collective exhibitions in Brazil and abroad to their participation in the 34th São Paulo Biennial (2021) and the Venice Biennale (2024). “A national milestone in this process was the strong presence of indigenous art at the 34th Biennial. And this wasn't an isolated episode: the following two biennials also gave prominence to indigenous art produced in Brazil. It can be said that the Biennial took on the role of launching indigenous artists who stand out in the country to the international stage. The big star of 2021 was Jaider Esbell [of the Makuxi people], alongside Gustavo Caboco [of the Wapichana people], Uýra Sodoma [from the Munduruku ethnic group], Daiara Tukano [from the Tukano – Yé’pá Mahsã people], and Sueli Maxakali [from the Maxakali-Tikmũ’ũn people],” Amaral reported.

She added: “One of Jaider Esbell’s most notable works was ‘Letter to the Old World,’ prepared for a trip the artist took to Europe. In this work, Esbell responds to letters from colonial travelers, echoing the denunciation of the genocide of indigenous peoples. There’s a clear parallel between the colonial past and the current extermination. During the Biennial, at the height of his career, Esbell committed suicide. This isn’t a psychological analysis of this act, but it can undoubtedly lead us to reflect on the fact that this process of internationalization doesn’t unfold without tensions.”

The following Biennial, in 2023, featured a strong presence by Denilson Baniwa, an artist from the Baniwa people, as well as the MAHKU (Movement of Huni Kuin Artists) collective. The collective is composed of natives from the Kaxinawá Indigenous Territory. “But the culmination of the internationalization of indigenous art occurred at the 2024 Venice Biennale, one of the most prestigious events on the international art circuit. With a clear emphasis on the Global South, curator Adriano Pedrosa invited artists Denilson Baniwa, Arissana Pataxó, and Gustavo Caboco Wapichana to curate the Brazilian pavilion [entitled the Hãhãwpuá Pavilion, after the name given by the Pataxó people to the territory of Brazil]. The pavilion’s façade was decorated by the MAHKU collective. The aesthetic proposal resumed the dialogue with the geometric motifs of body paintings and indigenous decorative art, collectivity as a mode of creation, and the dissolution of art in spaces of coexistence,” commented Amaral.

These and other manifestations breathe vitality into the restricted and somewhat stagnant space of contemporary visual arts. They constitute important elements of what Amaral characterized as “indigenous cultural diplomacy.” This has taken on special relevance in the context of the global climate crisis. “It can be said that demands previously more closely linked to the communities themselves – such as land demarcation, self-determination, and recognition of multilingualism, which were very present in the 1980s and 1990s – have come to share space with global issues such as the environment and climate. Indigenous art became internationalized at the same time that notions such as the Anthropocene spread in the public arena.”

In this sense, the work of indigenous artists and filmmakers contributes to the efforts of other high-profile indigenous “ambassadors,” such as the Kaiapó leader and environmental activist Raoni Metuktire, who was awarded the Grand Cross of the National Order of Merit in 2025 and the Legion of Honor, France’s highest distinction, in 2024; the writer and activist Ailton Krenak, who was the first indigenous person elected to the Brazilian Academy of Letters in 2023; and the Yanomami shaman and leader David Kopenawa, who has received numerous awards and honors and whose international profile grew with the impact of the book The Falling Sky, which he produced in partnership with the French anthropologist Bruce Albert, who was born in Morocco.

According to Amaral, indigenous cultural diplomacy articulates environmental, social, and political demands, thereby broadening the field of dialogue between different worlds. Its protagonists become ontological mediators and “sensitive translators between modes of existence.”

Meeting spaces

The four conferences, among others presented in the various sessions of the Brazilian stage of the Democlites Project, converged on one point: dialogue between worlds is possible but requires the hegemonic world – improperly called the West – to increase its capacity to listen and recognize other ways of existing and thinking. As Alexis summarized: “The dialogue of knowledge is always situated. There’s no neutral place where all ontologies come together on an equal footing. But we can create meeting spaces where each world is valued – and where politics, science, and law learn to coexist with other possible worlds.”

The two aforementioned workshops were coordinated by Pedro Dallari, full professor of international law at IRI-USP; Fabienne Peraldi Leneuf, professor of public law at Université Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne; and Fernando Menezes, full professor of state law at FD-USP and administrative director of FAPESP.

Fabienne Peraldi Leneuf, professor of public law at Université Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne; and Pedro Dallari, full professor of international law at IRI-USP (photo: Daniel Antônio/Agência FAPESP)

Menezes highlighted the various initiatives that FAPESP has supported in areas related to the Democlites project. These initiatives involve entities in São Paulo, such as MAE-USP, which hosted the first day of the meeting, as well as the Museum of the Portuguese Language. They also involve French partners, such as the University of Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne, as well as other institutions, including the Sorbonne Nouvelle University, the National Museum of Natural History, and the Quai Branly Museum.

Celso Lafer, former Minister of Foreign Affairs, former president of FAPESP, and professor emeritus at USP, opened the meeting, as did Marion Magnan, attaché for Science and Technology at the Consulate General of France in São Paulo.

In his opening remarks, Lafer emphasized the “importance of academic cooperation diplomacy” and the “value of knowledge as a foundation for peace, understanding, and collaboration.” He also recalled his role as Minister of Foreign Affairs in organizing the 1992 United Nations Conference on Environment and Development in Rio de Janeiro (Rio-92), where representatives from 179 countries established a global agenda to mitigate environmental issues and drafted the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. This was the first major global legal framework that officially addressed climate change as an issue affecting the entire planet.

Over the next two days, the workshop for the “Democlites – Democracy, Climate, and Ecological and Social Transition” project continued at the headquarters of Business France and at FD-USP. Topics included corporate social and environmental responsibility at Business France and transitional justice and environmental law at FD-USP.

More information about the Brazilian stage of the project, including the conference program and the academic credentials of the speakers, can be found at fapesp.br/17873.